TX_Kevin
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Fort Bend county
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Here's some exchanges with this goof. In typical fashion, if he can't win, he won't play - he certain won't consider another's point of view. Dear TX_Kevin:
As I don't believe that either of us will convince the other to agree with our respective positions on the issue of hunting, I would like to let you know that I will not be continuing the conversation after this e-mal. I did however want to reply to your latest e-mail as a courtesy, since you took the time out of your day to write to us.
You asked where I got my information on dove hunting by saying "There's no possible way that you have a shred of credible evidence supporting your opinionated rant." The letter you read in the newspaper was an edited form of what I submitted and the sources for the information were trimmed out. Here is what I think you are looking for.
"In recent decades hunting has contributed to significant declines in dove populations that have been recorded in the Eastern, Central and Western Management Units which comprise the states where dove hunting is legal. (Dolton, D.D., and R.D. Holmes. 2002. Mourning dove population status, p.30, 2002. U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Laurel, Maryland)
> Just look at all of the wetlands saved and/or created by Ducks Unlimited. Go to their website and have a look. It's not fiction, it's true and there are those of us who can drive you to places which have been saved by DU - right next to a subdivision that was not created by hunters. <
I agree that organizations such as DU have protected great amounts of wildlife habitat that would have been lost to development. Obviously this is a very good thing, but I wonder if hunting organizations would be interested in protecting wildlife habitat if it were off-limits to hunting? As far as I can see, DU protects habitat not for the ducks and other waterfowl, but to establish greater recreational opportunities for hunters. DU is selfish, rather than altruistic.
> We don't go around casually shooting things as you imply. <
I read an article from another Texas newspaper over the weekend where the hunting columnist was talking about driving somewhere to do an errand, and upon seeing doves sitting in trees and flying about wrote that he couldn't "pass up the opportunity" and got out of his truck and shot at the birds, killing three.
Many hunters don't get overcome with the desire to kill when they see wildlife, but some clearly do.
> My estimation from the comments you've made is that you do not eat meat of any kind. That's your choice, and I respect that. I do eat meat and I like it that way, you should respect that as well. <
I'm a vegan. I eat no animal products and do not use leather, wool, silk, or animal tested products. While I respect your choice to eat meat, I don't support the action of eating it any more than the animals do.
> I don't agree with your reasoning, but I will fight to the death to protect your right to have that opinion. Will you for me? Or, instead will you simply start banging your drum and waiving your banner telling everyone how wrong I am because I am a hunter? <
No, I do not support your right to hunt. I don't support the right of anyone to harm another sentient being against their will unless they are acting in self defense. I do support the right to bear arms (believe it or not) because I don't believe that the police and military should have the right to possess and use guns while the citizenry cannot.
> Here are a few questions for you:
> 1.) Are you in greater danger of morning dove becoming extinct from over hunting, or being robbed at gunpoint? <
I guess it depends on where someone lives. Since I'm fortunate enough never to have been robbed at gunpoint, nor has anyone I know been robbed at gunpoint, I'd have to say that there is a greater chance for doves to be driven into extinction through hunting.
> 2.) Which does my 15 year old son benefit more from, killing and eating a deer, or the crystal meth lab down the street? <
It's sad that your son has to choose between killing helpless animals and working in a crystal meth lab. I'd prefer that he stay home and read, or go hiking, or play basketball, or take saxophone lessons, or volunteer at a homeless shelter, or get a job walking dogs, etc. There are plenty of other things to do besides killing animals and dealing drugs.
> 3.) Would you rather your son or daughter spend the weekend with someone like me, or someone like the thousands of child molesters that are still out there? <
I think you're intelligent enough to see that kids have more options than just killing animals and being crime victims. Would you rather your son work for an anti-hunting organization or be a drug-addicted woman-beating pimp? I think you can see the foolishness of my question, and I think you can see how it is pretty much identical to the one you asked me.
> This is what I mean Joe. You turn a blind eye to that which is right beside you and real, and way important . I know from working here that these inmates stood behind us in line at the market. They watched us walking to our cars. We just weren't their target that day. In my case, I am often told it's because I am rather large and look like I can defend myself, and I might carry a gun (which I sometimes do) because of the sticker on the back windshield of my SUV. They want as little resistance as possible. <
I disagree with you in that I don't think crime prevention is the most serious issue we need to address, but because it is indeed an important issue I don't begrudge people who wish to work on it.
> Most hunters today are educated. We are very capable of policing our own. <
Most hunters are educated, but please don't be fooled into believing that hunters can police themselves. Our office receives calls every day from people who tell us that hunters are trespassing on their posted property, that they are threatened by the trespassing hunters, that they are charged with hunter harassment for driving hunters off their own property, and how the conservation officers do absolutely nothing to address their concerns - whether that is to enforce the conservation laws or to protect private property rights.
> There are always going to be the few, and I stress few, that will not go by the rules, no matter what they are, and those people don't find much company. <
It's more than a few, unfortunately. Our office hears from people every day who are victimized by hunters in some way.
> They also find themselves being turned into the game wardens and find themselves in quite a lot of trouble. <
We've found that getting a game warden to act on something other than a charge of "wasting game" is nearly impossible. Hunters often ignore posted land and when the property owner calls the police the police say if is a job for Fish and Game. Fish and Game takes a report and then does nothing. That's how things work in New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Michigan, WIsconsin and Minnesota (these are the states that we heard things from recently). I doubt that Texas is any different.
> At any rate, we will not hunt any animal to the brink of extension. As intelligent humans, we've learned from the past. <
Don't be so sure. The California and national hunting lobbies are opposing a ban on lead ammunition in critical condor habitat, after several of the endangered birds were found dead from lead poisoning.
> Forgive me for reading what is written, but my understanding from your words is that you feel somewhat enlightened, and that if you can only communicate your points fairly, that we hunters too will see the light. I am sorry Joe, you are just wrong. And, the fact that you pass yourself off as enlightened, while the rest of us aren't, well; I just read between the lines. Was I inaccurate in my assessment of your viewpoint? <
I don't feel that I'm "enlightened" in any way. What I do believe is that I have a more highly developed sense of empathy. No, I don't think that most hunters can come to believe that wildlife should be protected rather than exploited. I think somewhere along the line in every hunter's life something happened to destroy their connection with individual animals as "persons" - as beings who can enjoy their lives, be happy, feel pain and suffer. I think hunters have lost the ability to recognize that humans are not the only animals who experience emotions such as love, trust and happiness. Intellectually I think most hunters know this, but emotionally they are disconnected.
> No, we don't eat the animals that don't taste good. Carnivores rarely do. <
So it's not about the primal instinct to eat - it's about weighing the temporary satisfaction of your tastebuds against the life of an animal. I believe that an animal's life is far more important than making someone's taste buds jump for joy for 10 minutes.
> Coyotes are a nuisance animal and can cause a whole lot of destruction to people, and their animals. Just ask the rich folks in the hills outside of LA. They are having their sweet little Yorkshire Terriers yanked through that pretty little white picket fence and carried off an eaten by both coyotes and mountain lions. <
Those poeple in the Hollywood Hills should keep little Fluffy and Fido indoors. Don't blame the coyotes and lions for being coyotes and lions.
> A few mountain bikers in California have been greeted by the mountain lion too. <
Yes, when we choose to enter their world we must prepare ourselves for what happens if we come too close. Lions see humans - especially small humans such as children, as an available prey species. Since we know this, we can't be shocked when a girl scout is snatched and dragged away. I feel for everyone involved in such a tragic situation - I truly do - but the lion should not be killed because s/he really did nothing wrong.
> Have you seen one in the wild sir? I have. <
Mountain lions? No, I've not.
> Beautiful animals. And, coyotes are magic. They melt away right before your eyes. Just like magic. They're truly amazing. <
Yes, I agree with you. I've seen coyotes on several occasions while hiking/camping and I'm amazed at how they can "vanish." One moment you see them, the next they are gone. Amazing, beautiful animals. Worth far more than the $25 a fur buyer will give you for their skin.
> Oh, and bobcats too. Man, they are cool. <
I have not been fortunate enough to see a bobcat.
> Sometimes I shoot these animals with a camera. Sometimes with a gun. In either case, because I am aware of my surroundings, and the numbers of animals present, I don't take too many. What have you seen sir? No, I mean actually seen and experienced in person - in the wild. <
My favorite wildlife to share a general area with are by far black bears. I've been within 20 yards of two cubs playing in the leaves, rolling around and over and on top of each other. Not for a moment did I feel threatened - I just let them do their own thing. I have an affinity for skunks too - great little guys to watch waddle around.
Obviously I've seen deer. If I had a dollar for every rattlesnake I've seen I'd be a wealthy man. I've seen Black-headed vultures (sorry, I don't know the name of the species). Raccoons. Muskrats. Mink. Black rat snakes (those suckers are long). Grouse are neat. You can't see them until you're on top of them, and then you still can't see them until they flutter up and fly away. They never fail to startle me. Turkeys. Egrets. I have seen elk run across a clearing but I've never ben very close to them.
I've seen a lot of wildlife because I'm an avid hiker and I love camping. I never have the desire to kill them, however.
> Have you ever seen a harvester pick, shuck, and cob corn? Pretty fancy piece of machinery. It's pretty violent to that corn stalk too. <
No, I've never seen this but I have a hard time thinking that one can be "violent" to a corn stalk, since the corn stalk is not sentient. I've not seen the harvesting process for very many crops because I don't spend much time in farm country.
> How about a bobcat taking down a jack rabbit or a cotton tail? <
I've seen hawks flying down nad grabbing a rabbit, and I saw an eagle (not sure what kind) swoop down and grab a fish and then fly right back up into the air without breaking a sweat. Incredible sights despite the sad feelings I had for the rabbit and fish.
> A pack of coyotes taking out a newborn calf, or a whitetailed deer fawn? I have. All of the above. If you are to stop us from hunting, then you have to stop the bobcat, coyote, mountain lion, etc. It's just as natural for man to hunt as it is for the bobcat. <
I disagree that it is "natural" for man to hunt. Our ancestors were largely vegetarian animals.
AUSTRALEOPITHICUS AFERENESIS
> And, before you launch off about "necessity" that just pure crap. I've seen bobcats kill a quail and walk off an leave it. They do it for practice, or for sport, or because they just plain want to as well as because they are hungry. <
I've seen feral cats catch and kill mice or birds and then not eat them. I think it's practice - them trying to stay on top of their skills.
> You've stated that sport hunting is the problem, but commercial hunting was the reason for the decline in Carrier Pigeons, not sport hunting. It is a mistake to group the two. Those were not our people sir. Not by a long shot. <
Hunting is hunting - the differences between the different types are a matter more of degree than of kind.
> You opinions seemed to have been formed by emotion and deductive reasoning, and not facts or experience. You seem to feel the need to attempt to enlighten others by sharing your feelings, with the concept that if you say it enough to the right people, you’ll get your way. There are more of us than there are of you, and we will fight harder than you will, and you will lose as those who’ve come before you have. <
There are fewer of "you" every year. The number of hunters has been declining steadily and there is most likely no way to turn this around. Older hunters are either dying or otherwise leaving the sport in greater numbers than young hunters are being recruited. This is a fact - just call up US Fish and Wildlife and they will tell you as much. Sport hunting will be virtually wiped out within the next 50 years. We're just doing our part to help speed that process along.
> I will close with one final question: what might occur if you put all of this effort into the abolition of crime as we know it instead of sport hunting? Then maybe we could all be on the same team – you know, pulling on the same end of the rope. <
I have heard many hunters tell me that there are always going to be a few who don't follow the rules and who commit terrible acts of cruelty, thereby making all hunters look bad. Likewise, as long as we live under the economic system of capitalism where money is the foundation, and as long as there are people who wish to use force to dominate others, we are always going to have crime. The principle of "might makes right" is behind much of the crime in society, I would assume. Interestingly, it is what hunting is based on.
Violence in all forms must be eliminated but we as a species cannot seem to figugre that out. We decry violent crime but then fight wars which are nothing more than orgies of violence. We prosecute some extreme cases of animal cruelty (we lock up people for dog fighting) but others forms of cruelty - a trapper leaving an animal in a leghold trap for 72 hours in Nevada; a factory farmer confining 5 hens in a cages so small that they cannot move so he can make egg production cheaper; a scientist pouring bleach into the eyes of a rabbit - are licensed and permitted.
Unless done in self defense, violence is wrong whether the victim is human or a dog or a pig or a dove. More than simply eliminating crime, we have to eliminate violence.
> We could even have dinner together. Man, I make a really good venison pot roast. And, I can grill dove with a wrap of bacon and a little jalapeno in the center that will just knock your socks off. Throw in some camp baked potatoes, some grilled corn on the cob, and some beans. You’ll be popping buttons on your britches, I promise. <
I'll gladly partake in the baked potatoes, the corn and the beans (no butter on any of this stuff please) but you can keep the dead animals. I find that I can nourish myself very well without having to make deer or doves or cows or chickens or pigs etc. suffer and die. Don't want to pop a button on my britches either - I don't sew very well.
You're always welcome to come for my home-style collard greens (collards, garlic, jalapeno, tomatoes and onions, cooked in vegetable broth with a little celery salt) home fries, baking soda biscuits and a big jug of lemonade. You want popcorn for dessert? OK, I'll whip up a pot.
Thanks for the conversation. I'm sure you will not agree with many of the points I've raised, but if nothing else I do hope it allows you a little insight into the way that at least one wildlife advocate thinks. I regret that I cannot continue our conversation, but I wish you and all you love the best that life can bring.
Peace,
Joe
To: askunclejoe@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: To Joe Miele, Vice President
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:26:28 -0500Dear Mr. Miele: >> Nice article about how dove hunting should be stopped. Sir, where do you get your information? There's no possible way that you have a shred of credible evidence supporting your opinionated rant. <<>If you’d be so kind as to let me know what information you’re speaking of, I’ll be happy to share my sources with you.< I too can copy and paste. See the attached for a copy of the article in question. >> I work for the Texas Department of Criminal Justice. I would far rather that you stop crime than stop dove hunting. Sir, your rant is in the wrong direction. << There are many issues that deserve our attention and our hard work. The proliferation of crime is one of them and I thank you for being involved. The exploitation and destruction of wildlife and habitat is another, and that is the fight I am involved with.Whether you like it or not, people are here to stay. As people proliferate, wildlife habitat will suffer. There is not another soul on the planet who fights harder to sustain and maintain wildlife habitat than the hunters. Just look at all of the wetlands saved and/or created by Ducks Unlimited. Go to their website and have a look. It's not fiction, it's true and there are those of us who can drive you to places which have been saved by DU - right next to a subdivision that was not created by hunters. Down here in Texas where we still have quite a lot of prairie, marsh, woodlands, brush, and even mountains, wildlife is just that. Wild. And, there's plenty of it. We don't go around casually shooting things as you imply. My estimation from the comments you've made is that you do not eat meat of any kind. That's your choice, and I respect that. I do eat meat and I like it that way, you should respect that as well. I don't agree with your reasoning, but I will fight to the death to protect your right to have that opinion. Will you for me? Or, instead will you simply start banging your drum and waiving your banner telling everyone how wrong I am because I am a hunter? Here are a few questions for you:1.) Are you in greater danger of morning dove becoming extinct from over hunting, or being robbed at gunpoint?2.) Which does my 15 year old son benefit more from, killing and eating a deer, or the crystal meth lab down the street?3.) Would you rather your son or daughter spend the weekend with someone like me, or someone like the thousands of child molesters that are still out there? This is what I mean Joe. You turn a blind eye to that which is right beside you and real, and way important . I know from working here that these inmates stood behind us in line at the market. They watched us walking to our cars. We just weren't their target that day. In my case, I am often told it's because I am rather large and look like I can defend myself, and I might carry a gun (which I sometimes do) because of the sticker on the back windshield of my SUV. They want as little resistance as possible. Most hunters today are educated. We are very capable of policing our own. There are always going to be the few, and I stress few, that will not go by the rules, no matter what they are, and those people don't find much company. They also find themselves being turned into the game wardens and find themselves in quite a lot of trouble. Oddly enough, when searched by the game wardens, they often find things that get them invited to TDCJ facilities for an extended visit. At any rate, we will not hunt any animal to the brink of extension. As intelligent humans, we've learned from the past. >> And, by the way, hunters in Texas are not all booger eating morons as you've painted. Many are actually very intelligent and all that I know consume what they kill.<<>I don’t recall ever using the phrase “booger eating morons” nor do I recall ever calling into question the intelligence of hunters in general. I also take issue with the notion that all hunters consume what they kill. I don’t think most coyote or fox hunters eat the animals they shoot. <Forgive me for reading what is written, but my understanding from your words is that you feel somewhat enlightened, and that if you can only communicate your points fairly, that we hunters too will see the light. I am sorry Joe, you are just wrong. And, the fact that you pass yourself off as enlightened, while the rest of us aren't, well; I just read between the lines. Was I inaccurate in my assessment of your viewpoint? No, we don't eat the animals that don't taste good. Carnivores rarely do. Coyotes sometimes get strung on a fence and thus wasted, but foxes and coyotes are often turned into leather. Their pelts are used in many different areas, especially over seas. Coyotes are a nuisence animal and can cause a whole lot of destruction to people, and their animals. Just ask the rich folks in the hills outside of LA. They are having their sweet little Yorkshire Terriers yanked through that pretty little white picket fence and carried off an eaten by both coyotes and mountain lions. A few mountain bikers in California have been greeted by the mountain lion too. Have you seen one in the wild sir? I have. Beautiful animals. And, coyotes are magic. They melt away right before your eyes. Just like magic. They're truly amazing. Oh, and bobcats too. Man, they are cool. Beautiful animals. You know they're moving as the creep through the brush, but you can't see their body move - it's like they're gliding or riding a carpet of air. Every now and again you can see their feet move, and so you know they aren't really gliding, but other than that, you just can't tell. I've seen all of this while hunting. Sometimes I shoot these animals with a camera. Sometimes with a gun. In either case, because I am aware of my surroundings, and the numbers of animals present, I don't take too many. What have you seen sir? No, I mean actually seen and experienced in person - in the wild. >> Contrary to popular belief in New York, meat does not necessarily come from the market. << >Most often it comes from the slaughterhouse, but wherever it comes from it is always a product of violence that we are better off living without.<This statement sir insinuates that you're a vegetarian. Have you ever seen a harvester pick, shuck, and cob corn? Pretty fancy piece of machinery. It's pretty violent to that corn stalk too. How about a bobcat taking down a jack rabbit or a cotton tail? A pack of coyotes taking out a newborn calf, or a whitetailed deer fawn? I have. All of the above. If you are to stop us from hunting, then you have to stop the bobcat, coyote, mountain lion, etc. It's just as natural for man to hunt as it is for the bobcat. And, before you launch off about "necessity" that just pure crap. I've seen bobcats kill a quail and walk off an leave it. They do it for practice, or for sport, or because they just plain want to as well as because they are hungry. >> Carrier Pigeons were taken out by commercial hunters, and were consumed mostly on the upper east coast. That's your people. <<>They were killed by hunters – your people, not mine. We understand that many people do not share our opinion when it comes to sport hunting, trapping and the role state and federal wildlife agencies play in creating many of the problems associated with wildlife. We hope that in time, as you continue to read The C.A.S.H. Courier and website, you will change your opinion and come to share our views.<You've stated that sport hunting is the problem, but commercial hunting was the reason for the decline in Carrier Pigeons, not sport hunting. It is a mistake to group the two. Those were not our people sir. Not by a long shot. You opinions seemed to have been formed by emotion and deductive reasoning, and not facts or experience. You seem to feel the need to attempt to enlighten others by sharing your feelings, with the concept that if you say it enough to the right people, you’ll get your way. There are more of us than there are of you, and we will fight harder than you will, and you will lose as those who’ve come before you have. I personally believe that it is we hunters who are enlightened, and you people who are fighting for the rights of animals who are misguided. I will close with one final question: what might occur if you put all of this effort into the abolition of crime as we know it instead of sport hunting? Then maybe we could all be on the same team – you know, pulling on the same end of the rope. At that point maybe we really do make the world a better place. We could even have dinner together. Man, I make a really good venison pot roast. And, I can grill dove with a wrap of bacon and a little jalapeno in the center that will just knock your socks off. Throw in some camp baked potatoes, some grilled corn on the cob, and some beans. You’ll be popping buttons on your britches, I promise.
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