We shoot spikes only if they are big bodied and or long curved antlers. Mostly it is a gut feeling when you are looking at him. Also how he acts around other deer. If he shows any maturity, he goes. Otherwise, culls are culls at three and a half years... so a young spike has that long to impress, or he goes....

Kevin,

This was my response to the same question a while back on the board.  I'll just copy and paste here.

"People need to quit worrying about shooting spikes...period.

If you have alot of spikes in your 1 1/2 year old age class (and especially if you have them older than that), then there are things you need to address before you ever consider shooting one.

What is your carrying capacity?  What is your population?  What is your average recruitment rate?  How about your buck:doe ratio?  Tell me about the age structure of your deer herd?  How good is your native food supply?  What are you doing to supplement that native food supply?

Until you can do this, you can't know enough about your deer herd to make decisions on spikes.   And if you take care of all of these things and get them in order, you won't need to worry about spikes.

It's not that they'll go away.  Even on controlled, well fed populations, when drought hits, the 1 1/2 year old age class will sometimes produce high numbers of spikes.

Get your other issues in order and then if you want to start "culling", do so at 3 1/2 years old or older. 

I've told this several times, but I'll do it again here.  We've never had a large number of spikes in our 1.5 age class.  Matter of fact, never over 10%...until 2006.  We had a severe drought and for the first time we didn't have year round food plots and had a large number of deer on the ranch competing for a limited food supply in the form of protein pellets.  As a result, the 1.5 age class that year sported over 70% spikes.  But there was NO difference in my genetics.  Just in the balance of population to food supply. 

The following year, we had a great rain year and saw 1 spike in over 40 1.5 year old bucks.  Again, did my genetics just get better?  No. 

Now, an argument could be made for taking that one spike in a banner year.  He was the worst of the worst.  But why would I worry about him?  There are other factors that may have played in:  was he born late? Did he get sick, injured?  If my age structure is in order, I can give him time to prove himself."

Before I go down this road I need to point out that I am not qualified to have an opinion.

So, the question then remains: Assuming the same ranch, the same conditions, the same nutrition, the same water supply, will a yearling spike catch up to a yearling 6 point, and if so, by what age?

I HAVE SEEN A YEARLING SPIKE GO TO A MAINFRAME 13 AT 4 1/2 HE WAS IN THE LOW 160'S

The question though is whether or not the spike will eventually equal the non spike.

There will always be exceptions to every rule.

This is probably the most controversial topic in the world of deer managment.  I have read a lot of studies on this topic.  I myself used to shoot spikes about 4 years ago.  There were some variables there but we would still shoot them.  Today we don't shoot any spikes unless they are obviously older deer that need to go.  I agree with Hardy's statement's above and have read it many times.  I used to fret over the culling of spikes but don't do that anymore.  I have come to learn that proper deer managment is a very long marathon and not a sprint.

I agree with Hardy totaly. We hade a drought this spring in the panhandle and this is the first time we have seen any spikes. If the deer is a spike at 3.5 then I think he should definatly go. I wathced spikes at our San Angelo ranch turn into great bucks later.

Kevin,

You know where I stand...

I would not shoot yearling spike bucks and decide later. The keyword in this sentence in my opinion is "yearling".

Hunt Hard. Fish Smart. Explore Texas.

Kevin,

There is no way to tell.  There are too many variables in whether one will or not, therefore the best thing to do is leave them alone.

Two recent studies (one in Missouri and the other from Texas or Mississippi?)showed that there was no way to predict future antler development from a deer's 1.5 year antlers.  Bucks with small antlers at 1.5 can grow enormous racks later in life and ones with impressive 1.5 year class antlers may have inferior antlers by age 4.5-5.5.  By age 3.5 you can predict with better accuracy a buck antler potential at 5.5 years of age.  This killing all spikes myth was started in Texas in the early 80's or maybe late 70's, and many states and scientist have disproved it since then.  Culling is a good management tool, but done incorrectly is detrimental to the heard.  When culling, environmental influences also need to be considered.  Superior genes can have poor antler development years due to lack of all food varieties required.  Deer need a mixture of food plots, protein feed, natural browse and mast to maximize nutritional intake.  And they adjust those ratios and feeding habits throughout the year.  If one, two or three of the food copmponents suffer from drought, then their antler development will be less.  So one year as mentioned above there may be few trophys present, but in a year with favorable conditions, the same deer heard may have many trophies present.  So be careful when culling during years of unfavorable antler growth, you may be killing next year's Booner.

One factor not mentioned so far is that the difference between a first year spike and a first year 6pt could be when his mother was bred. 

If Doe # 1 is bred in Oct and Doe #2 isn't bred until December or January the offspring of Doe #1 are going to have a good head start on Doe #2.  Other factors such as rainfall and available food can make a difference.  Good luck.

The Hunt goes on forever, the season never ends. http://www.hossfly.com 979 777 1725

This is from an article I posted on the site about 2 years ago:

A common topic among landowners is white-tail gene pool management.   When talking about the management of a deer herd’s genetics there are basically two schools of thought.  One is the genetics management strategy developed and championed by TPWD and their research station on the Kerr wildlife management area.   This strategy, based on half a century of controlled environment research (their only test subjects have been deer who literally spend their entire lives in a small pin), emphasizes the importance of killing all spikes- no matter what.  Their reasoning for killing spikes stems from research showing that if two deer are born in the same year and one is a spike and the other is a 4 point the spike will always be inferior to the 4 point, which is true, with pin raised deer. 

The other school of thought comes from one of the, no, the greatest deer manager of all time, Al Brothers.  In a time when deer populations were managed like cattle and shooting does was thought to be a cardinal sin, Mr. Brothers applied his real world experiences from the field and co-authored a book called, Producing Quality White-tails, changing the way we look at deer management today.  His management strategy was based on 3 principals: letting bucks grow old, planting food plots, and keeping buck doe ratios as close to 1:1 as possible.   What Mr. Brothers strategy has over the archaic dogma that TPWD is now using to set harvest regulations in parts of Texas, is that his strategy can actually be applied by ranchers, hunters, and deer managers to create deer populations with more bucks and bigger racks.  Until the day that deer walk out from the woods with their age, weight, and a record of what they have been eating and will eat in future seasons tattooed on their backs, the indiscriminate killing of young deer, thought to be inferior, is not practical for managing deer genetics, unless of course these deer live their entire lives in a variable controlled pin, living off an ample ration of pedigree.  If you are managing an average Texas lease, between hunter error and environmental variation, there are just too many variables too implore the Kerr WMA’s harvest strategy on your ranch.

Based on my experience, and it is considerable, I agree with the Brothers strategy as posted above by John Schwarzlose. 

There are too many variables to make a blanket statement that all spikes are inferior.

The Hunt goes on forever, the season never ends. http://www.hossfly.com 979 777 1725

I have read many of the studies and I don't believe the TP&W research should be dismissed as being arkane.  It was well thought out and provided great data.  There are also other subsequnet studies that support the TP&W conclusions.  Yes other factors impact antler growth and drought certainly is one of them.  However, after reading the studies I believe the best management policy is still to cull the spikes.  Yes some spikes would have grown up to have good antlers, but your odds are much better with the 1.5 year olds that have baskets.  You need to reduce your deer population anyway and by culling the spikes you are not going to hurt your odds of producing better antlers, you will improve them.  Waiting to cull any bucks until they are 3.5 creates problems.  For one, most hunters can't age that well on the hoof.  Second, you have already let that deer breed.

In conclusion, I believe it is a good management practice to cull all spikes except in circumstances following a bad drought when the majority of your 1.5 year old bucks are spikes.  Even when that happens, I would still take some of your spikes in your efforts to reduce your population to what your property can handle.

That's absolutely not good advice.  Please don't follow that.

Who said anything about reducing his population?   We don't even know what it is. 

In Florida, we hammered spikes for years in the 70's and early 80's under this kind of advice from biologists until we and other biologists realized that spikes were the norm, not the exception there due to diet and stress and that we were shooting ourselves in the foot by destroying our 1.5 age class.

He was asking if it was a sound management strategy...which it simply is not.  There are too many factors other than genetics (and drought is only one) that play into what bucks have their first year.  At no time during a male whitetail's life does he endure the stress that he does during his first 1.5.  To make a decision on whether or not he will become a trophy based on this is just not intelligent management in my opinion.

By the way...here's one of your "culls".   He has a white diamond patch on his left shoulder (unfortunately can't see it here), and was a 3 inch spike at 1.5...on a good year.  I have him on video. 

This is him at 4.  Maybe we should have shot him...after all "by culling the spikes you are not going to hurt your odds of producing better antlers".   Really???  God forbid don't let him possibly breed A doe at 2 when you can kill him as a spike and prevent a buck like this from EVER passing on his genetics.  I mean it's simple math.  In a mature deer herd, he probably won't participate until he's 3 and quite possibly 4 to any great degree.  But you want to smash it early and now you'll miss out on YEARS of breeding by a buck like this over his lifetime.

Pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

There are a lot of assumptions in my advice and I assumed they were obvious.  In most hunted counties in Texas we are over populated with deer and thus we do have to manage our deer through harvesting.  Obviously if your place is not over populated then management may be different in some respects.  I absolutely agree that some spikes will grow up to be good deer.  However, if you are trying to improve your odds of growing big deer and you do need to manage your numbers and you do have yearlings with small baskets, I would harvest spikes.  The small baskets have a better chance of having better racks at maturity.  The TP&W studies (and others) prove that.  I think that is a good management practice in most areas and under most conditions, again, provided you are over populated and do have yearlings with baskets.  Sure you can tag a spike that ends up being a big buck, but the yearlings with baskets are more likely as a whole to have better racks at maturity.   It is all about improving your odds.  I don't know many hunters that can accurately gauge whether a deer is 2.5, 3.5 or 4.5 on the hoof.  As such, most other practices are too difficult except for very experienced hunters and wildlife biologists.  I am not a wildlife biologist, but I do believe the guys in my area that are and that is why we harvest our spikes, again provided we also have yearlings with baskets.  It is very logical in my opinion.

Best to all

I agree with the statement that Ryan Cambell made above... We try and make the decesion at 3 1/2 yrs old, we have seen lots of deer go both ways...

Most of the people that push TPW spike dogma have never brought a deer herd from nothing to something and produced quality deer.  People like Hardy, who get to photo quality deer year after year on his place and other places are discounted by people who have "read the book" on shooting spikes and KNOW that Kerr is right. 

In a trophy deer management scenario, shooting yearling spikes makes NO mathematical sense.  Even if only 5% of yearling spikes have the potential to be trophies, those 5 deer every hundred are real and can be saved by waiting just 2 or 3 years to make a decision.

You can make an argument that yearling spikes might be a decent target of harvest in QDM with rampant ignorance of age classes by your deer shooters, but the natural evolution of almost every QDMA program that is ever started is TDM and almost everyone that is a succesful Trophy Deer manager does not shoot yearling spikes.  Many that think they are succesful don't know how good a deer herd can really look.

There are of course exceptions to everything, and I don't want to take away from all the science that has been done by lots of hard working people.  It is just not a practical management tool when you are looking for a needle in the haystack monster deer.  You cannot cull your buck herd with "more often than not" brush strokes and be as succesful as treating every deer as its own individual decision.

There have been a number of great points made here in this thread. My favorite point though, by far, and the and the point that I think would stand out for most normal guys, is that it's a whole lot more fun and a whole lot more rewarding to shoot a 2 1/2 year old or 3 1/2 year old cull buck than it is to shoot a yearling spike.

Last year I shot a 5 1/2 year old cull buck and an 8 1/2 year old cull buck. Each was my best deer at the time. I am not one who gets on great leases, and I don't own an awesome high fence ranch, so when I get a chance to take a deer it's more about the hunt and the experience than anything else.

If you want to reduce overall deer numbers, why not shoot does and leave the 1.5 yo spikes?

You'll not only eliminate that deer but all of the offspring that would come from her over her lifetime.  Seems like "more bang for the buck"...no pun intended.

So Mike, are you saying that shooting doe is not a good management practice?

Kevin, There is no one answer, as you have just found out. There are several factors that should be considered in determining what is the "best" answer for your specific circumstances. Some of these factors are:

1. What is the ratio of the number of deer on your property to its ideal carrying capacity?
2. What is your buck/doe ratio?
3. What is the general quality of your herd at this time?
4. How consistent is your food and water supply?
5. What impact do adjacent properties have on your herd? (I.e. is there a significant interchange of deer between the properties, or is yours large enough that the adjacent properties have little impact?

Consideration of factors and recommendations:

1. If you are well below the carrying capacity of your property, then you want to increase quantity first and quality second. (Does are the primary impact upon quantity. Does also affect quality, but it is more difficult to determine "cull" does. Bucks affect quality and are easier to manage than does.) Therefore, in this scenario, you would only want to harvest older animals near the end of their useful life, whether buck or doe. This scenario does not occur very often in Texas unless we have had a "die-off" for some reason.
2. If you are at or above the optimum carrying capacity, then you should harvest does until you get your buck/doe ratio in the range of 1/1 to 1/1.5. Although it seems counterintuitive, I like to harvest the barren and one fawn producing does first since the twin producers are usually higher quality animals.
3. If you have attained an ideal buck/doe ratio, then you should start culling bucks and sub-standard does to get within your ideal carrying capacity. In this scenario, unless you had a drought or other unusual reduction in food and water, most spikes, that are at least 1.5 years old, are inferior deer. First priority should go to any that are 2.5 or older. Be careful when harvesting yearling spikes as in a good herd there will be fawns that grow little spikes by hunting season. (TPWD research addresses this situation quite well.) The taking of genetically abnormal deer should also be encouraged. (The Germans award "Hege" or "Conservation" trophies to hunters taking those culls that were the ones most deserving of being removed from the herd.) Many herds have deer that have good racks, but no brow tines. I would recommend culling them as they seldom develop brow tines nor larger racks.
4. If you have a lack of sufficient food and water to provide for proper nutrition, I would allow for this as I determined by harvest quotas.
5. If you have a small low fenced property and there is a considerable interchange of animals with adjacent properties, the first thing that you should do is to try to establish a cooperative agreemnt of some type with your neighbors. If you can not, your good management may be impacted by their willingness to shoot anything. The 13" rule does help to maintain quality across fences, though, so you should not abandon good management.
6. An ideal herd will increase by about 25 - 50% per year depending upon habitat, predators, and hunting. You should set your harvest quotas based upon consideration of the factors discussed. Typically, a quota might be to take: 6 cull bucks, 6 trophy bucks, and 12 does. (example only) Then if you hunt six hunters, you can assign a pro-rata share, as 1,1,2. Sometimes it is desirable to require that a hunter harvest his culls and does, or he gets no trophy bucks the next year. Some places, you must harvest a doe or cull that year before you can take a trophy. In Germany, where the game is intensively managed by the government, as a lease holder, you fail to take your "abschuss" (culls and anterless) quota, your trophy quota is cut accordingly the following year.
7. Hope that this helps.

Good hunting starts with good wildlife management.

"For God gave man dominion over the beasts of the fields and forests."

Ken Jayne "Bald Eagle"

Kevin,

The best advice you can go by, is the advice Hardy has dished out to you. To me, taking yearling spike is not a good management strategy at all. I once seen a TV show, where they were netting bucks from a hellicoptor and cutting the antlers off, ear tagging yearlings, and so on. There was a yearling spike netted and ear tagged, which they used as an example. Well, at 2-1/2 yrs, the following year,  that yearling spike turned into a 8 pt which scored 138 +/- B&C. And just like Hardy Said,"That's pretty ridiculous". It is trial and era when it comes to spikes, in my mind. Just listen to what Hardy has posted on this subject and you'll do just fine.

Kevin,

I thought my post was clear.  If your goal is to reduce numbers, then shoot does.  You'll get more bang for the buck because you not only remove that doe but all of offspring as well. 

Yes, removing does IS good management.  However, as pointed out by others, it's only one part of the equation. 

I obviously agree with Ken Jayne.  Yes if you only have professional hunters or biologists hunting your deer you can try to wait to cull until 3.5, but you will probably have some breeding by inferior deer.  Attached is a picture of a deer that was harvested this year after 5 years of management culling spikes and reducing our herd (does and cull bucks) in an effort to get close to 1/1.   All in accordance with the plan outlined for us by our local TPWD biologist.  This deer is much, much better than any deer we had on the place before we started culling our spikes and we were able to allow a bunch of kids take their first deer (cull or doe) in the management process.  I also strongly agree that you start by culling the older spikes and other older bucks with no brow tines or clearly messed up racks.

I suggest you consult with a local wildlife biologist.  He doesn't charge anything and you can then decide whether to heed his advice.

Good luck to you.